Ali Nasser, author of The Business Owner's Dilemma, spent years racing cars before building a wealth practice for high net worth entrepreneurs. He tells Brett about the point of optionality, the moment your assets could cover your lifestyle forever, and why he now works 25 hours a week, 35 weeks a year. They also cover his phone stack rule, which has triggered its emergency line only once in seven years of monthly mastermind meetings.
Brett TannerHost, founder of Be WealthyANAli NasserCEO, entrepreneur, and best-selling author of The Business Owner's DilemmaAli's racing lesson: full brake means you can't steer, and a sharp turn means you can't accelerate. He applies the same rule to business. When you're changing direction, you have to slow down and adjust first, then reapply speed, instead of trying to pivot and grow at the same time.
Jump to 3:09Optionality is the point where what you've built could be turned into cash flow that covers the life you want, forever. Ali says he coached a self-made billionaire whose struggles looked nearly identical to a client worth $20 million, because hitting optionality doesn't make anyone stop and ask what they actually want.
Jump to 39:52Brett brings up Ricardo Semler, author of The 7-Day Weekend, who found happiness rose with net worth up to about $12 million and then flattened, because by then most people already have the house and the travel they want. Brett translates that to $10 million earning 4%, about $400,000 a year, plus $2 million set aside for taxes.
Jump to 43:01Ali describes a client who had the chance to buy back a company he'd sold for 5 or 10 cents on the dollar after the new owner ran it into the ground, with his whole team pushing him to do it. He said no, because he wanted the life he was already living more than the money.
Jump to 49:15After a divorce in his twenties, Ali paid about $52,000 in legal fees and realized he was still fine. That made him ask why he wasn't spending more on travel, a better home, or giving to charity, instead of funneling every spare dollar back into the business.
Jump to 56:34Ali's monthly entrepreneur forum runs five hours with everyone's phones put away, except for one burner flip phone kept by spouses and assistants for true emergencies. In seven years of meetings, it has rung once, for a birth.
Jump to 1:19:40Ali's current time allocation is 25 hours a week and 35 weeks a year on the business work he loves, leaving 17 weeks completely open. He recently used part of that time for an eight day silent meditation retreat in Portugal.
Jump to 1:09:14I think retirement is the worst word in the world for an entrepreneur.Ali Nasser · at 1:10:18
Tap any chapter and the video starts right there.
“Wealth can either be your slave or wealth can be your master, and there was a point where wealth is my master.”
Ali Nasser at 46:10Ali's return on life experience approach is the same kind of priorities work the mountains tool walks you through.
It's Ali Nasser's term for measuring whether your time, money and energy are actually going toward what you value, instead of only toward more income. He has people set a time allocation for the hours and weeks they want to work, then protect the rest for the relationships and experiences they say matter most.
Brett points to Ricardo Semler's claim that happiness rises with net worth only up to about $12 million, because by then the big wants, like the house and the travel, are already covered. Ali adds that you can be worth $1 billion and still feel unfulfilled. He says the real work is living in alignment with what you value.
It's the moment your assets, if monetized or turned into cash flow, could cover the lifestyle you want every year without you working. Ali says many entrepreneurs pass this point without noticing and keep building out of habit instead of pausing to ask what they actually want.
Ali says no, calling retirement the worst word in the world for an entrepreneur, because it puts your gifts out of use. His alternative is to design a time allocation, like his own 25 hours a week and 35 weeks a year, doing only the parts of the business he loves.
Ali uses a rule called phone stack: everyone at the table puts their phone in a pile, sets a timer, and whoever checks theirs first picks up the bill. For true emergencies, his entrepreneur group shares one $20 flip phone number instead of individual cells.
0:01Welcome to the Be Wealthy Podcast, where we bring entrepreneurs the strategies and tactics to grow your business and unlock new opportunities. Once you've achieved success, we'll teach you how to think about your money. Because wealth is about more than just cash flow, it's about freedom. Now, our host, Brett Tanner. Welcome back to the Be Wealthy Podcast, the show where we talk to you about your wealth tactics, strategies, and the mindset that allow you to live an incredible life and live a life by design. Today's conversation is my good friend Ali Nasser. He's a CEO, entrepreneur, and best-selling author, author of The Business Owners Dilemma, which everyone needs to go read. Uh we go down all different roads, but most importantly, we talk about how do you get more return on life experience? How do you think differently about your money and how do you be more present and find more joy? He'll dive into strategies and tactics that he use in his life and what he's learned from
1:03working with the really, really wealthy that have either exited their business, they've reinvested into it. We have an incredible conversation. Let's jump in right now with my conversation with Ali Nasser. I could not be more excited for today's podcast. Ali, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Brett. My pleasure to be here.
So, Ali and I did not meet in some crazy cool story, cage fighting in Cambodia or something like that. Would have been cool. Uh, we actually met because I read his book. I love the message and he's now come he's the only person that's spoken in our mastermind twice. Uh, he's an incredibly gifted entrepreneur and we're going to travel down so many roads today. Ali uh I we should actually started filming when you and I just first started talking there because the things you're doing, the way you think about them and the way you live intentionally um is missed in today's world. It's just it's it's missing out there and the world needs they need more clarity and they need more peace which is I think what you have figured out as an entrepreneur which is so hard to do.
2:05
Oh man, that's um I'm humbled to hear that but I totally agree. We're conditioned to follow a certain path and then we get over consumed with that conditioning and after a while it's hard to turn it off. We just get so addicted to to the way we've done it or more more more build build. So
I'm
so So we're going to go we're going to go there but I want to go to um I did not know this. Right. So doing my research to prepare for today I didn't know that we might find you on a race car track. Is that a I mean, is that am I I didn't we missed this part because it it doesn't seem that does not seem like you.
Uh yeah, that's that's in fact if you look in the background here, you might be able to see it if there's a little uh
well, it's sitting in there, but there's a little um you know, model Porsche sitting in that cabinet. Um, no, cars were my one of my first passions and I spent I probably spent a decade behind the wheel of a car on the on the racetrack and and seven years maybe of
3:09endurance racing, something to that effect. And I find that endurance racing I love I love automobiles. I love kind of pushing the limits and I love the data and input that comes from racing because you can learn 50 different ways to do the same corner and every little bit of you know marginal impact uh of how fast you can go limits of adhesion. Um and then there's a lot of mind control because you do endurance racing. Our races are eight hours long and the driver's in the car for two to four hours. So you're at like 98% uh you know input and attention for hours straight. So the mental fortitude and focus and flow and presence that comes through that it's just incredible. So yeah, good discovery. Um in fact I've even done a couple speeches where I relate business to driving a race car because there's so many analogies and similarities between how we build a company and how we race a car. Well, so I I that's where I want to go.
4:12What do you learn? What are some of those lessons that you learned that you applied like take the race car lesson and you know or lessons and apply it to business?
Yeah.
Or life either way.
Yeah. So, one of them I'll think of a couple here, but one of them is um you can't ask the car to do two things at the same time. So if you're in full brake, 100% brake, you can't turn the steering wheel and you can't be accelerating. So there's a time where like if you're running a business and you're telling, "Hey, we're we are changing direction. We're going full brake. We're going to change direction." Well, you can't accelerate at the same time. So if you imagine kind of a steering wheel, for every degree of input you're putting in the steering wheel, you can only have that much degree of acceleration. So if you're dead straight, you can be 100% on the throttle, but if you're turned at a 90 degree angle, you have to adjust the throttle that same way. So in a similar capacity, when you're looking at business and you're you've got a startup or you've got a established company, you're trying to turn in a new
5:15direction, you have to be aware of, hey, first we need to break, then we need to turn and adjust, and then we need to apply throttle and pressure because you can't hit the brake and the gas at the same time. you're going to unsettle the car. And that translates over to business in a lot of ways. And it creates the balance between process and innovation. So, if you're always process, process, process, um, and you're not growing enough, you're probably over slowing the car. You're probably taking the corner too tight, uh, and you're not carrying enough speed. But if you're too much innovation innovation and the car is sliding off the track and it's tailing out and you're losing control and you're then you're you you need more process. So some people say what's the balance between sales and operations or innovation and and and process and it's that are you staying on the track? Are you carrying enough speed? And then are your lap times fast? And the way you measure your lap times is what's your revenue growth? You know what's your what what are your margins? So you have scorecards that can help you identify what those metrics are to keep you on track.
6:19
That is one of the best business metaphors I've heard. Um I love that you can't do two things at the same time. So I think as an entrepreneur we're trying to do 12 things at the same time, right? But I love the we're trying to everyone wants to grow, right? Maximum growth. But then there's times we're pivoting and we need to go back to process and tighten things up. And I don't think that we think about it as clearly as you said, which you can't slam on the gas and the brake at the same time.
Yeah.
And you've got to go.
Yeah. And so, uh, that's that's really, uh, I haven't heard it ever put that way, and I'm never going to forget that analogy. That's a Is there another one that comes to mind? I mean, that was so good. I have to ask for a second. Is there any other lessons that you came from? You kind of alluded to one where you said that um, there's 50 different ways to take a corner on the track or some, right? Like you said, there's so many.
So, actually, that's the same example that came to mind. So, people assume naturally that the fastest way around a corner is the tightest line. So, essentially, if this is the corner, you
7:21think, "Hey, it's the tightest line." Kind of like when you're running and sprinting in a racetrack on a on a on a running track, the sprinter on the inside's got the fastest. But with racing, it's very different. It's not the tightest line. It's the line where you can carry the most amount of speed while turning the steering wheel the least. So I'll say that again. It's the It's the line where you can carry the greatest amount of speed while turning the steering wheel the least. So essentially similarly in business you want to carry as much momentum as you can. But when you're turning you, it's better to turn at a wire angle and carry momentum and not settle the car as much or unsettle the business as much because you're not crazy turning the wheel, which unsettles the car. Similarly, you unsettle the team if you make too much of a shift or a change. And if you slow down too much and take this super tight line, you may have the tightest line, but you've lost all the speed. And the speed and the momentum is really what carries you through a corner in the most effective way. So, it's this balance of how much do we want to turn? We want to
8:23turn as little as possible and carry as much speed as we can, and that's going to get us through the corner the best way. And if you talk to an operations person, they're naturally going to think, I want to go slow as much as possible and make it as tight as possible to minimize any slip or any have as minimal friction as possible. What they don't realize is they're killing momentum. And then if you talk to the typical entrepreneur, it's like, well, let's just go 120 mph and turn the wheel. Well, if you do that, you're probably going to end up losing a lot of traction, maybe spinning out, maybe damaging a part, maybe losing a team member or an employee because it was too drastic of a shift. So, it's finding that perfect balance between slowing enough that you could still carry momentum and turning in a way that doesn't uh lose that speed, but still gets you in the direction you want. Uh, I love that. I've always, you know, in our business has always said that like as a CEO, your job is to be the bridge between operations and sales because it was up to my operations folks. Um, we would go so slow because everything's got to be so perfect and we
9:26can't do anything without the perfect system and the documents are perfect and right, it's just this beautiful perfect system. Then I go to my sales guys, right, who are they're my guys, right? they're going to go making guys and girls they're going to make it happen but they're going to miss a signature on an initial on one page or they're going to right they're running so hard to get it happening and I always said like guys you know the the real estate contract in Arizona is nine pages long and I used say just give me two there's like 12 initial places and two signatures at the bottom of page nine I go do me a favor do the best you can but if you long as you get page nine signed we can clean everything else up with an addendum on the back end and ops now the ops people say well why can't the sales people get it signed like they're I get it. But here's the thing, right? If if they could do it perfectly like what you guys do, you don't have a job, right?
They're not going to because they don't have the organizational skills because behaviorally, we all are.
And there's people that are better suited to do certain things. And it's just I've always said I'm the bridge between operations and sales helping people cross the chasm. But it's funny you said that because it's there is a
10:29natural friction that I don't think people get in business. And it's natural and it's great. Your operations people should be pushing back saying, "Let's build some more systems." Like, "We need to organize some more." Your sales people should be pushing like, "Hey, we just want to go. We got to go sell some more stuff." And I think that natural fit um is critical. I don't think enough people think about it in the way that you described it.
Yeah. Yeah. I I'm with you completely. It's such a battle and it it can be a beautiful experience. Even though there's always friction, there's always tension. But what I try to identify is the measurable because someone will say, "Well, how do you know what the right answer is?" And I often get I remember speaking one conference and an an ops person had said, "Well, how do you know that's very subjective, you know, keeping the car on the track?" I said, "Well, you've got a lap time and the lap time in business are your revenue growth, your profit margins, you know, maybe it's some other metric that you establish. So if you're growing at 40% a year and the industry benchmark is growing at 15% a year and you're complaining about too much process,
11:31maybe you're not compl maybe the complaint isn't as valid because hey, you're growing at almost three times the rate of the typical industry or industry peer. Now if the industry is growing at 10% and you're growing at four and now it's a point we say hey maybe there is way too much process and we need to drive more innovation and growth. the measurable becomes what's the actual outcome? What's your lap time? What's your what's your revenue growth rate? And if you keep track of that and you can use that as a metric, then you can say, hey, if we're if we're too high, if we're high above that, maybe we may even need to, hey, what what safeguards or process might we put in? And if we're, you know, uh well below that, let's start to let sales drive more of the of the outcome and let ops listen a little more. So there's there's ways to bring them together, but I think if you got a clear goal that we our goal is to grow at 30% a year, then everyone can align around that goal.
I uh I love that. Well, I want I want to start digging in, but before we jump in, Ollie, if you had to say, you know, when a business owner reads your book, uh,
12:36and if you want to describe, explain what success looks like in a sentence, what would that be at the end of your I read your book, um, and they're living the life that you want them to live? I know you got the three dilemas, like what would be the sentence you would say that what do you want for the average business owner? What's your ideal outcome? I want every business owner to realize their life's work and get the return on life experience that they truly desire from everything that they've done.
Well, and that so put a pen in that listeners of your because that will be the theme that we experience over the next uh a little over an hour together with Ollie. So Ollie, I want to go back before you became Olly of today on stages, the author doing these incredible things. I want to go back to your first memory of money. You know, when I when I go to, you know, the way I I teach it when I'm in a room as I say, you're the 10 you're you're 10 years old, you're at the family dinner table, money comes up. What's the feeling? So, what's your
13:38earliest memory?
Earliest memories, it was a couple, but it was feeling a conscientious about it. It was tight. My mom used to say, "Don't waste paper towels. They're expensive. Make sure you turn the lights off when you leave a room. Electricity is expensive. Um, don't leave any food on your plate. Not necessarily that that tied to expense, but just don't waste. So, there was this sense of be cautious and be frugal and don't waste. That was the earliest kind of feeling or experience. And and then the the second memory was I went to the bank when I was maybe 10 years old with my cousin and he went to the teller and said, "Can I withdraw the interest on my account?" I was like, "What in the world does that mean?" And he said, "Well, I deposited this." I think it was like £300. uh we grew up in England and he had like 10 pounds of interest and he basically didn't touch his principal and he withdrew the 10
14:41pounds of interest and we went into town and he spent that money on you know whatever it was that we bought that day and I was like you can make money without having to do anything. You just like parked it. So it was kind of those two memories that stood out the most from my childhood.
Well, and those I mean you've got kind of two different memories. The first one was a little bit of of scarcity, right? Hey, we got turn off the lights, eat your food, you know, we got, you know, that's expensive. And the second memory is kind of abundance in that, hey, money can make more money and you could live off what it creates. Those are two,
so you kind of got these two different, you know, forces in your story. You've kind of said you had two sides of the family and doing my research and see these two different lessons, right? So, what were those two different models and how did they shape you? the two sides of the family. So I I grew up in a really unique environment in the sense that when I I would stay with I remember going to Canada for
15:44pretty much every summer. Uh we didn't take vacations. We went on family trips which basically meant my parents would fly us kids off to hang out with our cousins for the summer which was amazing. Um, so I'd spent two months in Toronto pretty much felt like every year as a kid. And I had two main cousins that I spent time with. One of them lived in a mansion on a really expensive street with probably a fivecar garage and had like practically a golf course in their backyard. And then the other ones were, you know, a really small home, school teacher income with the kids contributing towards rent when they were working as teenagers. and I was closer with both families and I'd spend about half the time in each place. And it was interesting as a kid to observe like, wow, what a disparity between um these two lifestyles and situations. And and I I've had fun with them both. I enjoyed them both, but it gave me a sense of what's possible on one end um and then what's what's reality on the other end. And it I think it gave a great sense of opportunity. here's
16:49what's possible. But then humility and be grateful for what you have. And I was in a beautiful position where I had everything that I needed. I never had to worry about food being on the table. I didn't have to pay rent. But I didn't have what I wanted beyond your basic means. If you wanted anything, you got to go work for it. You got to go buy it. You got to go pay for it. It wasn't like mom or dad are like, "Hey, here's, you know, here's a car and a credit card and we're paying your bills and you can do what you want." It was like anything beyond your basic needs. and you know school expenses you got to figure it out. So that gave me what I feel and I was the perfect opportunity to to have a base and to also be inspired towards growing something. And I had a few experiences as a teenager that tied also to scarcity that really focused me in saying I won't go into too much detail here, but I'll call it a couple of experiences where I saw the tightness my parents had and the struggle they were dealing with and it had me realize I never want them to be in that situation
17:52again. and it's my job to take care of mom and dad as they age or they get older and it's my job to take care of the family and I'm going to make sure they're never in that situation again where they have to have that financial fear or scarcity or worry. So, as a young teenager, probably 13, 14 years old, I kind of put that mentality on my back and I started working and then that just compounded because my my eyes and ears were always looking for how do I build more? How do I create financial independence? How do I make sure mom and dad are always going to be okay or my siblings are okay or I'm okay or my my, you know, future spouse and kids are okay? So, I got into that mentality as a teenager and I remember being, you know, 14, 15, 16 years old just thinking my only goal is to build financial independence to then build a family and grow a family. It is uh that is such a it's just a wild I think those two uh those two different experiences and how how much it can impact you how much we're shaped by the story right and so you know you and I
18:54spend a lot of time talking to entrepreneurs about their money and I don't know I'm I'm sure you've had the similar experience a lot of those people that we talk to are running the same program from when they were 10 years old they're still paper towels are expensive right and you're even my wife today like I've got the one where the likes as a kid, you had to turn the lights off, right? Every room you walk out of. Well, my wife didn't grow up. I I don't believe they ever turned off a light, apparently. Um, and so her and I'm like, "Babe, I why don't" and she's like, you know, then she'll tell babe the the cost of this life. I'm like, well, it's not the cost, it's the point. The point is, why aren't we doing it? And it's interesting, right? And it's just in my, you know, you've got those moments where I travel back and it's like, Brett, you're not a 10-year-old kid sitting in your parents living room anymore. You're a grown adult. If you don't want to finish your plate, you you you actually should I actually transplant my mom today like we got to eat. She's like, "You got to finish your whole plate." I'm like, "Mom, that's actually not healthy." Like, it's not true. If you go and have a huge plate, that's not what you should be doing, but we've all got those. We got to reprogram those stories, right?
And it's a big part of what it is probably is go back and you're not that
19:56story. You're also not your parents. You love them. You love your parent, but you didn't take anyone's advice and run it through your own filter and then what is the best for you, your situation, and then using your language what to get the most out of your life experience, but take it through your own filter and don't just get caught living someone else's life running a 40-year program that was instilled in you when you were 10 years old.
It's Yeah. Yeah.
It is very easy to do that.
100%. And it's natural because it's um you know, we we've all read the book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. probably one of those staple books you read in college. But Stephen Covey introduces the notion of paradigms and he says that once a paradigm has been formed, it's very difficult to see it any other way. If you remember the book, it was like an an image of an old lady and an image of a young lady that were two slightly tweaked versions and then there was the one in the middle. And whichever one you saw first, you would always end up seeing that again. Um or the vast majority would always see that again. And that paradigm with these early experiences with money, they're
20:59formative. Our brain is in learning mode where sponges, you know, you've got kids and when you teach a kid a principle at a young age and it it sticks in them, it's very difficult to to change that. It's like that that, you know, leaf imprint on cement, you know, or the cat footprints that you see on the on the pavement. Like once it's there and wet, it's very difficult after that point to ever change it. But it is possible to change it. And then when we hit certain levels and resources where maybe we didn't have enough, but now we do, we can revisit those paradigms and say, "Hey, is this really serving me? And is this allowing me to live the the life that I truly want, or am I just continually a victim of the circumstances I was once subject to that I've since changed?" And that's, I think, where the real magic happens is us living a more conscious or intentional life. Yeah, we've got to get better at going back and reflecting, right? And I think that's something we start doing. Like I wish, you know, my 20-year-old brain. Um the conversation you just you we've
22:02having so far, my 20-year-old brain couldn't have had it because it was just grow, win at all cost, run hard. There's no reflection, right? It's just how fast can I run and I'm not running fast enough and harder, right? And we're now at, you know, at 45, you know, like you and I talk, I'm starting to do, you know, I started doing the deep work as you call it and going through like reflecting, well, why am I making that decision? And why is my paradigm should this be my paradigm? And should I shatter that and do the work to move through it? And so you you've had to change your paradigm growing up in London and you moved to Houston as a kid. Uh, I'm curious, what were some of those paradigms you had to change going, you know, was from opportunity or whether it was scarcity? How did those shift the way you think moving from from London to Houston? I
mean, it was a big life shift and I was 11, so it was uh middle school basically. I moved in sixth grade and the culture. So England has a very they do a lot of critical thinking
23:07and that it's just instilled in the education system to kind of think about things more critically and when you get to the states
how do they do that by the way like how does that show up in the school system?
It's a really good question. I think it's the way the teachers teach is not this is what it is and you need to believe this. It's more of here's the project and here's the thing you need to do and figure out how to get to the solution. And that was I went through monastery school as a kid which I think that was instilled also in monastery kind of the self problem solving and getting to an outcome. It wasn't so prescriptive. That's what it is. Took me a second to get there. The thinking wasn't so prescriptive. Do ABCD. It was like here's the outcome we're getting to. figure out how to get there. And when we went to go play as kids, it wasn't, "Oh, hey, here's the game you're going to play and you're going to do this from 3:00 to 4:00 and then we're going to go
24:08to such and such's house. We're going to It was like, go play." Like, you've got the afternoon, you've got your friends, you've got your bike, you've got the street, you've got the neighborhood, just go play. So, we didn't have prescript prescript prescriptive games. I mean, I remember growing up with my cousins and we literally would just spend hours and hours exploring the forest behind our house and there was no parents would just be home for dinner. And when we went and we explored in the city and this is this was a long this is this is in the 80s early 90s. Um but we would go get on the train when we were seven or eight years old and ride two train stations to the bowling alley and it wasn't like that was dangerous or you had to worry about that
by yourself but just the kids. Me and my cousin. Yeah, we'd go like an 8-year-old and a nine-year-old would go on a training. I mean, that's just what childhood was like. And certainly in the neighborhood, I mean, I walked home from school from, I think, the age of six or seven and it was, you know, it wasn't that far. It was probably a 15-minute, 20-minute walk, but you'd walk home from
25:10school and it wasn't uncommon for a bunch of kids to be doing that. So, I think there was a sense of independence and freedom and creativity at a young age. And I was reading this book um the Danish way of parenting. They say Danish has like the hap one of the happiest rates in the world and they raise great kids and this and that. One of the themes that they had in the book was when you're teaching your kids or allowing your kids, it's giving them the space to create their own ideas and solutions. So when they go play, like, hey, don't tell them how to play or what to play. Just tell them go figure it out. Go play. And then initially like, well, what are we going to do? But that after a while someone comes up with hey we could do this or we could do this we and then you're having natural creativity come out versus being really prescriptive with here's the game or here's a way of thinking could do it.
And so when you got to Houston you experienced it totally different.
I was a little lost with how polarized things were like blue and red and like it was very like hold on there's only
26:13two choices. What about It was just bizarre to me. I remember the first time I heard politics and I was like, you identify with a red or a blue party, but there was like 5,000 decisions in there. What if the red you don't agree with 200 of them and the blue you agree with the other 200 of them? And it was like, well, we got to identify with one or the other. You got to vote for. I'm like, but that doesn't make sense. I want to vote on each one of these people issue. Like, this isn't and that's too polarizing. And then I'm going to go a whole philosophical with you here, but you know I I was listening to a speech by Noam Chomsky is when I was in college and he's like a just a great brilliant mind. But he goes a way to control societies is to create two very polarizing opinions and sides of a of a of a topic and then create healthy banter and debate between the two and it keeps everyone really preoccupied and not really focus on the other issues they should be focusing on. So, like I was a teenager and I was already thinking in that mentality. So, it it never like I've never identified with red or blue. I'll identify maybe with a
27:16perspective of a certain politician or vote for someone for a certain reason, but I've never been able to be like I'm red or blue because it was just too much polarity. And coming to the states, it kind of felt like that. And I think some of it has naturally through osmosis, you know, penetrated, but a lot of it's been always maintaining a intentional eye or a watchful eye on the the dangers of having too much polarity or too much I'm a binary one or zero. And I think that served me well. Um, but I also like the idea of having conviction of a certain opinion or a certain path. Um, so there's a balance. I uh I love the way you said I I actually think that there's less division in our views than people believe today. Like I think if we if we forget the red and the blue we just took let's just talk about this one issue.
How many you know and we could name an issue but like that issue I think the majority would probably agree on that issue. It's but where you got to go I have to accept all of that or all of
28:19this. It's where it's like like you said I don't agree with I don't actually agree with 100% of any of it. Um right I've got I believe in this and I believe nope. on the no here. That's an interesting way to um the polarity of the states verse there's lots of options. Pick the issues as they are and and sort through them. That's an interesting that's interesting. Let's take it to business for a second. Any one of your team members or employees or mine. We can find a topic that we're completely opposite on. You can just pick the most polarizing topics out there and the reality is is approximately 50% of the country voted blue and 50% voted. can always find division, but if you choose to focus on where you're different, um you're setting yourself up for failure from the beginning. But if you start with where you're the same, hey, what do we both agree on? We both agree on 30% annual growth. So, I understand you want process and I want innovation, but we both want 30% growth, right? Okay. How do we get to 30% growth in the most effective way? What do you feel are the biggest things that are working and not
29:20working? What do what do I feel are the biggest things that are working, not working? How do we bring that together and find those collective spots where we both agree this is how we can grow at 30% a year and now the whole conversation the whole framing is around how can we grow together versus well I think this and you think that and this is where our conflicts are and there's a massive mind shift in that approach. So I think conceptually I mean we're speaking you know with this shift from England to the states in politics but I think in anything what we're trying to do is we're trying to find the points of consensus so we can grow towards a shared goal and the more effectively we can find those points of consensus to grow towards a shared goal the better we can live and that I think is with our partners with our business with our personal friendships uh with ourselves uh is using that um that philosophy toward growth. I love that. Um, so you you started your journey 20 years old being an entrepreneur. When was the moment you realized, okay, maybe maybe I'm wired differently about money. Maybe I'm wired differently than other
30:23people. I worked at Starbucks in high school and back then it was the cool spot. It was new. It was fun. Uh, it was like in Starbucks expansion era. And um I remember telling my one of my associates there and they were like, "Oh, you know, you're like you're doing good here and you have you you have a good rep with the manager and like you you could I could see you managing stores or maybe even being a regional one day once you finish school and that kind of thing." And I looked at the first thought going through my head, this is the last job I'm ever going to have. Like there's just no way I'm doing this. It's a means to an end. But like I'm never climbing corporate ladder. I don't want a job. I want to go build a business and I just noticed around me and even in the other and I did have jobs after that through college uh until I started my company. Um I just noticed that my wiring was what are you going to build? What company are you going to start? And that was just the default. It was never a sense of what job you're going to have. It's always you know the business you're
31:27going to build. And I think my parents, my dad even at a young age would ask what kind of company are you going to build? Um versus what job are you going to get. It was never the become a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer or any of that. It was like what company are you going to build? So I think I got that question asked and after a while I was like yeah that's right. What what am I going to build? So that's when I I knew it was something different.
I do think we are predisposed. Right. Not to say that someone who's an employee could be an entrepreneur uh and someone who's an entrepreneur couldn't go be an employee, but I do think there's a natural disposition. It could be the growing up in your parents or whatever. Uh for me, I just wasn't I realized I wasn't employable. I I had a job at a Fortune 500 kind of like you. Yeah. Yeah.
And I was there, you know, my experience, I was there about 6 months and maybe a year and at the end of my like I I became the number one sales rep like for this firm. I was the number one in my group and I got hardly any recognition for the manager and I was like this is interesting to me like but you like wouldn't you hey great job.
32:29So then I was like, you know what? I'm going to try for a month. I'm going to do nothing. Like I'm going to produce no viable product. I'm not going to do I'm going to go just check the boxes. And you know what happened? Nothing. Total like not doing anything or being the greatest was weighed equally. And I went to my wife, I said, "I can't I can't maybe I'm going to dig ditches for a living, but I cannot be in an environment where greatness or achievement isn't just thought about or recognized or encouaching your goal or like you know, anything." And so I realized I I I literally went and I quit and I said I could I I I got to do something else. I got to go where there's a scoreboard that's visible. Um, so it's funny those corporate like you get these corporate jobs sometimes and you're like well I could tell you what I don't want to do or it's that and so I think like understanding and doing that work internally who are we
right? You know when I talk to my kids I'm like you you could have a huge life
33:31as an employee. You could have a huge life of an entrepreneur. They're different and let's talk about what those lives look like and then you make the best decision on what kind of life you want to build.
Um but I think doing that running through that
now
is something we've all got to do.
Okay. So I have a question for you. When you do that with your kids, do you have a dog in the fight? Do you want a certain outcome
or are you okay?
So they can go, we can be school teacher, they can be entrepreneur, doesn't matter.
What uh actually in my you know you and your when you create a trust, right, you write a legacy letter to your trustees
and the legacy is as my as a trustees here when I'm no longer here. Uh what I want my kids is to pursue their personal best. Make sure that you don't assume that's my personal best. So examples of the personal best could be being the best school teacher in your district, right? It could just be me and the best is I care more for my cl my class is better. Like there still has to be an element of competition, but it's the best cheerleading coach in the gym. It so it has nothing to do with the best
34:34artist in it. It doesn't have to do with money, but it's pursuing growth and being your best. And so I don't have a dog fight. what I want for them is happiness, right? Whatever makes them truly light up. And now I also say you have to pick the you also got to figure out what kind of life you want. And right if you choose to take a path that maybe doesn't have as much economic production, you've got to understand that life, right? And there's no judgment whether that a big life's right and a small life's right.
But I think, you know, those are the conversations we have as kids. So I come to it with no, I'm not saying you have to go start a business. And I say if you want to be ridiculously ridiculously wealthy, entrepreneurship is one of the possible paths that people take, right? But there's lots of ways to be. But then it goes to how do we define wealth? Which is kind of a an interesting segue here because my my next question for you was, you know, you got to watch your family and how they interacted with money. And now you've helped all entrepreneurs, how they think about their money and their businesses. What were things your parents did? Not what they said, but from watching what they did with their money. What did you learn
35:39from watching them?
So, it kind of gave me some of the lessons of what I didn't want. So, I I appreciated my parents lived well within their means. They were never big frivolous spenders or anything like that. So, that was a good lesson that I learned. But I think my parents didn't invest well uh with the with the money that they did have. Uh they never really took on guidance or advice on um you know how to plan their wealth or invest their wealth and grow their wealth. Uh there was no strategy or system and they kind of just went with it like yeah you know like we'll we'll figure it out. They built my mother built a great business, a couple couple great businesses um or schools. And I kind of looked at their situation. I was like, what if I had met my parents 30 years ago and I was able to give them the guidance that I give clients today. And it would be transformative for my mom and dad. Like absolutely transformative. they would be in I mean I would have
36:42want to use a number but I'm going to throw 10x more wealth than they have today had I just had time with them 30 years ago. Um but that's part of learning like and and they've made some great decisions financially that have put them in a in a good position uh based on the things that did work out. But I think one one lesson I've learned and this may not have been from my parents or may have been from aunts and uncles. So, I've been really blessed to have watched I've had aunts and uncles that have a lot of money and aunts and uncles that have had very little money and I've had some that had a lot of money that don't know how to spend it and don't know how to use it appropriately and others that live a great life. And then between the clients that I've seen over the years, you get to see everyone's life and how they do it and their life choices and you see people worth 30 million, 300 million, a billion dollars and you start to you you get to hear their inner monologue in the meetings and you see their habits and their patterns and after a while you're like I want to be 50% of this person, 30% of that person. Like you draw you get to pull in all of this like how do I
37:46want to be wealthy? And
at the core of it, um, the biggest philosophical thing that I pulled in in in is that wealth is about well-being. In fact, the core word wealth comes from a middle English term that comes from the word well-being. And I know a lot of people even in my own family that have a lot of money, but they don't have a lot of well-being. They're not actually enjoying the money. They're st they're a slave to the money and they're still negotiating with a contractor for a $2,500 job when they're worth $200 million, you know, like it's like there's, hey, let it go. Like get a package deal done and get your whole, you know, house, you know, done properly and enjoy living there versus like still scraping over the dollars. And then I've seen others that just live this beautiful life and lifestyle um with a lot of freedom and and I think picking up those habits and saying if you have wealth the point of having wealth is it's a tool to help you live a better
38:48life. What does a better life mean? A better life means you're living in alignment with what you truly value. So essentially at your core, what do you really value? And is your time and your life and your wealth aligned with giving you more of that? And whether that's time with family or social impact or building your business towards your sharing your light or your gifts in the world um or you know donating to charity like what is it you truly want out of life and is your wealth being a tool to give you that freedom to live the life that you want to live and that's kind of what I've learned from the collective parents family members clients uh as kind of the end end thesis or at least the thesis at at 42 years old
when you see those patternists? What are some of the other people you said you want 20% of this, 50%. What are some of the when you see the wealth of you massively successful business owners? What are some of the patterns you see? And they could be, you know, positive or negative. What are the patterns you see?
Man, there is this there's a point and this
39:52was a life-changing point for me. There's a point of optionality, and I write about this in my book. It's that point where what you've built is enough that if you monetized upon it or you turned it into a cash flow stream, you could live the life that you want to live or the lifestyle you want to live every year in perpetuity forever. You're good. And that point of optionality, many many entrepreneurs, they don't know they've hit it. And some of them hit it, but they don't shift to refocus. What do I really want out of life? And then the default is I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. And I'll tell you, I've met people, in fact, I was on a call a week ago with a a guy who's got over a billion dollars and self-made, built it all from scratch, you know, billionaire. And the challenges and the growth issues that he is facing are extremely similar to someone with a 100 million or someone with 20 million. Maybe different than someone at two, but like you've hit a spot where you have enough. You can pursue more forever and never be
40:56fulfilled. even at a billion dollars or $10 billion and still lack the fulfillment or you can stop and you can pause to say what really matters to me in life and am I living in alignment with that and it doesn't necessarily have to be more as the measuring stick it can be better as the measuring stick or expansion and that's something that I think too many people don't realize it's just we we go back to what you mentioned earlier that we go back to our same thing I got to build more because that's what I've done in the past and that's my paradigm and Well, at what point is it not just about more and is it about better? Um, and enhancing that experience. So, that's something where I see I can see an addicted entrepreneur that still isn't satisfied and still isn't happy that's worth a billion dollars. And then I can see a completely content, aligned, you know, family focused, business focused, personal capability focused person that's got $30 million. And candidly, it makes no difference if that guy added a zero to his net worth. only difference it would make is a zero on a balance
41:58sheet, but his actual personal life might not change. U in many cases it doesn't change. So that's been a big learning over the years because I kept thinking more is better. Uh but I think better is better.
Well, I haven't brought this up on this podcast and have you ever read the book The 7-day weekend? Ricardo Semler?
I have not. super weird um book, but he did an interview with Tim Ferrris um and he had these just kind of what I'm gonna call radically different business principles, but he had a lot of thoughts on money and one of his thoughts was your your net worth and your happiness are linked to a certain point and he called the number 12 million like I just I don't know how he arrived at 12 million
but he said for he goes in his journey and all the people he studied there was until 12 million the as the net worth grew, happiness grew. And from that moment on, there was no more happiness created. And his argument was because he goes, "At 12 million, you you probably got the house you want. You know, you've you've got you're traveling likely the places you want to go to. You know, if
43:01you want a second home, you probably have it. If you wanted a boat, just want you got it." And he goes, "From there, it was just bigger and more.
It's the bigger house. It's the bigger boat." But he goes it wasn't creating and I I don't and I'm not saying the number is 12 million right I don't it doesn't have to be that it could be whatever but I think that's point there they are linked to a moment and then it becomes to your point all the other things are you balanced are you do you have relationships that matter are you doing the things that really matter to you and are you living a life by design or a life by default I think it's interesting that there is a link and then it completely unhooks itself
yeah I I agree with that and that 12 I don't know how old the book is, but you know, in simple terms, that 12, you know, call it at 4% is you got 400,000 of income plus the extra 2 million pays the taxes. So, I kind of view it like that. You know, it's the 10 for the income and the two for the taxes. And 400 grand a year of cash flow while still growing your net worth is a is a lot of people. That's a great life. And
44:06yeah, above that is really just a great life, but bigger and better, you know. So, uh, it makes sense. And then I think that you have to pause or if you're if you're wise and intentional and you don't just want to have the dopamine hit every time with more, more, more, more, more, and there's nothing wrong with more, don't get me wrong, but if more is your only pursuit, you the goalpost always moves and you're never satisfied. Um, so you wake up every day going, man, I just I'm getting all these successes, but I'm not actually feeling fulfilled. And when that happens, that's where that misalignment is kicking in. And it's starting to knock at you to go, hey, that maybe there's more to this than just more. And that creates the intentionality that we're talking about here. And stopping to say, what's really important? What's the true end goal? Not money, but what's the wealth is a means, not an end. What is the true end goal that your wealth is trying to get you to? And how can you realign your life to get toward there? And that involves a lot of realignment both practically,
45:09tangibly as well as philosophically or in your belief systems.
100%. And so when you think about today, when you think about wealth today, Ali, what does what does wealth mean now
to me or just in general?
Yeah. What when you think about it today, what does it mean to you?
It's a tool uh it's a tool to help me live a life that aligns with my values. So wealth gives me the freedom, you know, I took, let's say, I want to take three months off and I want to go experience whatever it is in the world I want to experience. Wealth gives me freedom to go do that. If I had a sick family member that really needed to get some critical surgery done and it cost $200,000 for that surgery and insurance didn't cover it, I can write a check for that and know that that created freedom. It created security for the family. If I get a kid that goes gets admitted to Harvard, you know, and that's, you know, what they're, hey, don't worry about the tuition, right? Whatever. I'll give you
46:10a 0% loan if I if I want to or pay for it, you know, depending on whatever circumstances you want to lay out. It's freedom. It's freedom. It's security, but I think it's a tool. And once upon a time, I was addicted to the tool. I was like, I got to build more. I got to build more. And there's this relationship that, you know, we talk about in technology, right? The slave master relationship. Um, wealth can either be your slave or wealth can be your master. And there was a point where wealth is my master. And in some moments it still kicks in. It's like, oh man, why are you so involved with that? We'll just let it go. Like remember who controls who? But there's a lot of work that went into repositioning that to go wealth is simply the tool. I'm the master. So what do I want to build my what do I want to build my life truly around and how can my wealth support that versus me being addicted every day to what's the money doing? How is it going? you know, what can I do to fix it? And just almost becoming it's a source of anxiety. So, that's kind of the that's kind of the philosophical approach is is how to use money as a tool to give you the life
47:12that you want.
What are you know when you when you work with all these high high performing entrepreneurs, where what where's a misuse where you see them misusing wealth as a tool? um they pursue opportunities that don't enhance their life experience just because those opportunities generate more money.
I'll give you an example. I have an entrepreneur recently fully set, fully happy, just spent two years remapping his time to get to the time allocation he really wanted and is loving it. Like loving it. And then this new shiny object came along. this new business venture and he doesn't need the money. It excites him to go build it, but in when he goes to build it, and I know this already, it is going to completely disturb this peace and happiness of his life experience that he wants. And I kind of asked him this question like
48:13you've got this opportunity here and this opportunity is going to provide you with a big financial reward and let's just for numbers being easy let's say he's worth $100 million and this is going to create 50 million more of wealth in the next 10 years or 5 years whatever it's but it's going to decrease his personal freedom and happiness to live the life that he wants to live by 30%. Right? Are you going to select the thing that just gets you more money but takes away your life experience? Or are you going to select the life that you really desire and not pursue this new shiny object and say, you know what, I'm okay with not getting that more money because I get to spend all day Wednesday and Thursday with my grandkids and I get to vacation more and I get to whatever it is that it was, right? He in his journey and no judgment in his journey right now is picking to pursue this new venture and maybe he needs to do this again because maybe it lights him up or maybe he goes into it a year or two in and goes, "Man, I should have not done this cuz now it's
49:15taken over my life." But everyone's on their journey and sometimes the pattern keeps repeating itself until the lesson is learned. But that's an example tangibly where it's like really what's more important? And then I've seen the flip where someone has had a huge opportunity. I had one guy tell his story all the time. He had an opportunity to buy back the business that he sold for like 5 cents or 10 cents on the dollar because the company that bought him had ran it into the ground. And his whole team was like come back do this. Like we can make like a huge return. And he's like I just want to live the life that I'm living and I'm really happy. So, I'm going to say no to that huge monetary goal because I want the life experience that I want. And he had the discipline to say no. So, that's the most tangible example I can give you. And there's a point in life where you have the option to make that. And there's a point in life where heck no, dude. You're 30 years old. You're building your worth. Go do it. You got to build that. I get it. Go build it. But there's a spot where you have to pause and look up and say, what do I really want out of life? And do I have what I what I truly desire? And am I living in a
50:18Well, to your point, it's so easy to say yes to the opportunity, right? Because opportunities come to all of us.
And so, it's so easy to go, yeah, yeah, that I have the skill set, I have the resources, I have the team, but then but then, you know, the second part of the question is at what cost,
right? Because life has costs,
and to make that decision, you're saying yes to that. You're saying no to something else. Um, that's a really great example as a way it's a negative of well that you you have all this optionality but is that opportunity going to give you more purpose, more joy and more peace or is it just more for something that like you said it's just another zero on a balance sheet?
Exactly. And Brett, the the way that a way to pause there and in some cases have your cake and eat it too. But you pause and you say, "Does this opportunity or pursuing this does this positively or negatively affect my return on life experience?" Right? I talk about role all the time, right? Like what's the life experience you desire desire? So does this positively or negatively affect my return on life experience? If it's hey, this
51:20opportunity, man, it's going to take away 20 hours a week from me and that's a negative impact to my life experience. The first response could be no. The second response could be, well, if I hired somebody that could handle this opportunity and resource this appropriately and I have the money to do that and it doesn't affect me for 20 hours a week, there might be a consideration to take on maybe one out of three of those opportunities that come up or whatever the number is because you're not putting it on you to be the one to go do that. So sometimes there's a place in there where you can you can say, "Hey, before I go do this, let me get the appropriate resource on the front end and let me allocate the appropriate capital on the front end where I'm not the one doing it." It's almost like being a grandparent versus being a parent to a new initiative. So there are spaces where it makes sense you do want to grow and build, but never at the cost of your personal fulfillment, especially when you don't have to. Like why would you ever choose to be less fulfilled just for more money when you don't need the money? You wouldn't you would if you took a
52:21step back. You wouldn't. But if you're just in a run hard, you just it's too easy to say yes too quick.
So what are some of those habits your wealth habits today? And I'll let you take it anywhere you want to go. What are some of those wealth habits that you've brought into your world? Whether that's living within your means or what are some of the habits that you practice as you think about your world? live well within your means. If you're going to invest in something outside of your domain, do it with the best people that know how to manage and run that. Like, I will never own rent houses. But I would not be opposed to the idea of someone who ran a real estate investment portfolio of rentous and being an investor in that, you know, or an LP or a GP or something in that. I'm not going to go do something just because, oh yeah, I figured out online how to do this. let me go do it. Stick to my core competency where I invest and I know I know really really well how to build my kind of business and grow it and there's a high degree of efficiency
53:24there. Kind of draw on um I think it was Jack Welsh who said this if you're not number one or number two in a business or in what you're doing like get get out. So I only stick to what I know really well where I don't I bring in the best resources like who really knows this? Like my deal team, like call my family office deal team that looks at stuff. They're they look at like 300 deals, 400 deals a year and invest in like six or eight. Um that's there's huge diligence, right? I'm not going to go say, "Oh yeah, I know how to because I'm an entrepreneur. I know how to analyze deals." Like no, stick to your core competency. Bring in the best resources. I hire the best professionals like lawyers, account like I want to hire the best in class um so that I'm getting the right financial, tax, legal, you know, coaching type of advice. I believe in learning from others mistakes. The same thing with health like I have a concierge doctor that you know looks at everything epigenetics and this and that and levers and I'm 42 with no major god bless no major health issues but I want to stay that way. So,
54:27how do I get the best resources to help me live the life that I want to live? Um, essentialism is a book that I love and conceptually I only pursue things in life that I really, really enjoy and want to be in my life. So, I don't get stuff for the sake of well, other people got it and that's the thing to do. Like, I haven't bought a new watch in 15 years. Um, other than this like $20 Timex one. um that keeps me, you know, connected but not connected. Um because I'm not into watches. Like I have three nice watches and that's good for me. It doesn't serve me. Someone else that might serve and they want to have a collection. For me, that's not what drives me. So I stick to just what I want and in the areas that I love in life, I live it abundantly and I will spend money there and enjoy it and experience it. But if I'm not really that interested in it, like I have no I I won't do any of it. um regardless of what the social norm might be. So I think those are the main habits I follow. Um
55:30I try to be get outside perspective on what I'm doing and make sure it's efficient and effective. Things change, you know, rules change, philosophy change, laws change, and having several eyes looking at your situation and giving perspective is really important. Um, and then I think that point of optionality, I kind of keep revisiting. Hey, here's what you can spend and live today. Is there anything in your life that you really are wanting that you haven't pulled the trigger on because of fear in the past and now you can now experience? And then sometimes I'll deploy a new resource that I never thought I'd spend money on, but I'm like now where I am today, hey, you know what? 20 grand a year is not such a big deal. If I'm getting this benefit or outcome, I'll stroke the check for that. Where before I was like, no for that. So, you have to revisit. you got to revisit your uh your norms.
What were some of those wealth turning points for you? And you could take the question anywhere you want to go with it as you look back. What are some of those biggest wealth turning points
when I when I went through I went through a divorce at a young age. So I
56:34was maybe seven. I was married briefly for uh two or so years, two three years. Um and I had like a $50,000 legal bill. It was like 52 grand. Um, and I wasn't at the time I wasn't taking a vacation to Europe because I wasn't going to allocate 10 or $15,000 for it, you know. So, I got to build that 10 15 grand can go back in the business and I can, you know, turn it into 30 or whatever it is. Um, and I realized, man, I just spent 50 grand on legal fees and I'm still okay. In fact, I'm good. So, why am I not living and spending more? Why am I not donating 50 grand to charity? Why am I not spending 50 grand on a better home or a better lifestyle? Why is this? That was a big turning point for me. Like what is the point of wealth if you're not actually going to utilize or experience it? Uh and I think I was still in quasi startup mode then. Uh
yeah,
but you have to revisit, hey, things have changed and what once was a big deal is not such a big deal anymore. Uh that was a turning point. Um, and then
57:38early on in when I was in college, I saw other students that were in the same spot as me taking hourly jobs at 6 to 10 bucks an hour and working working really really long hours to try to pay for school. And I was like, there's got to be a better way. And I got a job in sales. you know, I worked in uh Circuit City and in college and then CarMax a little later on and I could work, you know, 15, 20 hours a week and make three, four grand a month. Um, sometimes more because I was in a sales job and I could still go to school full-time, do 15 or 18 hours work and pay my bills and have extra leftover. The only difference was the riskreward. I didn't have a guaranteed income. I I might make zero, but I was willing to bet on myself. So, I think those sales jobs create a massive turning point because you realize me and my friend both just put in 50 hours worth of work, but I made three times as much money as him just because I took the risk of making zero. So,
58:40philosophically, every time that came up, I'm like, you know, greater risk, greater potential reward. And if you're if you're vigilant and you're focused on success, it could be a big outsize. And the same principle goes from you. You go from an employee with maybe, you know, a bonus or an employee with a tip when I worked at Starbucks to a salesperson that can make an outsized income to a business owner that can then create even more. Uh, so those philosophies really served me well uh from a wealth standpoint.
Tell me about a wealth failure. What did not work? You have something. What did it teach you?
It's a great question. A wealth failure. So, I'm going to focus the way I'm wired is what's the biggest learning I had?
Um,
I always reframe it, right? There's no fail. There's just there's there's Right. There's winning and there's learning.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it helps me trigger the spot. Okay. I know what it is. It in my mid30s I decided to start hiring professional managers.
59:44And and I'll say this, I don't have anything against professional managers as long as they're the right type of professional managers. When you have an entrepreneurial company, um you I I'll focus on the the learning or the failure. I brought in someone who had good technical capability, good operational capability, but didn't really understand the spirit of entrepreneurship and kind of the uniqueness of a service relationshipbased business. They were treating things very spreadsheet technical. Um,
yeah. And it cost me millions of dollars over the course of the years that I followed this quote unquote professional management strategy. Um, and it it disrupted the client experience. It took away my entrepreneurial spirit for a period of time. It it created a lot of fear in the business, a lot of perfectionism, and it was a big failure. And the biggest failure for me was not realizing it sooner and cutting it off sooner. and
1:00:47making the difficult decision because I liked all the organization and structure and things being in in a good order and in good ducks in a row, but we went from like 30 40% growth to basically zero. Uh, but we had everything looked pretty in a spreadsheet and everything was organized and everything was documented, but we weren't growing. And I should have sooner, it took COVID for me to realize, hey, you know, things have to change and let let me take the reinss back here. Um and it was a big big lesson for me to I should have trusted myself sooner. I should have found more of a balance honestly. I should have had stronger a stronger voice toward I appreciate this process and that's important to an extent but this is this is equally or more important to get to this outcome and if we can't get to both at the same time this isn't a fit. So it kind of helped me build a stronger management uh mentality from there and I learned a lot in that experience. may have lost money, may have lost time, may have lost energy, but man, did I learn the lessons that I'm taking forward with
1:01:50me now.
And those folks you hired from the outside, right? You brought in outside management.
I didn't organically grow them internally. I basically said, "Hey, I want to bring in like a a COO or VP of operations from another company and bring them in to help run my business." And and they weren't from the industry. So, you know, you you learn and uh there's things I could have done better. things they could have done better, but at the end of the day, that's what life experience is about.
I uh I love it. So, I want to go to your your book, which I think everyone should go read, the business owner's dilemma. And the three dilemmas are reinvestment, legacy, exit. Um when you think about today, which one's the most dangerous for entrepreneurs right now, especially, you know, our audience is a lot of real estate entrepreneurs. Which one of you think is the most dangerous today?
The most dangerous? I've never been asked that question. Um, my natural intuitive inkling, I'm not going to think about it. I'm just going to feel my way to that answer. And that's it's it's legacy. The legacy
1:02:52dilemma is really about what is it all for? And all of this wealth that I'm building, perhaps more wealth than I'll ever consume myself. What is it for? Is it for children? Is it for charity? Is it for ego? Is it for fun? And will my wealth be a source of empowerment for my children or a source of entitlement to my children? And will my wealth be a source of freedom for me or will it be taking my freedom from me?
And I think that's the most dangerous one. I feel that's the most dangerous one.
Uh I I would agree with you. I I think the I'm going to I'm going to label it differently. Uh the reinvestment one for the people that actually maybe their business isn't as profitable as they think it is, but they it's under the guise of well, you don't understand. I'm just reinvesting back into my business. And I'm like, well, why don't you make it first and then put it back in? Often I hear like some of the conversations I have in entrepreneurs are they're not making the profits they want. I'm like, well, hold on. You as an example, you've got a real estate business. You're not
1:03:55building a factory that has economies of scale. So, what are you investing back into? But I see that reinvestment as a challenge for entrepreneurs that they they're not making the margins aren't there and it's lost in a lack of financial education to quote I'm reinvesting when I'm actually just not profitable or I'm not hitting the margin numbers I want.
Yeah. So, Brett, I appreciate Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. You've actually changed my answer, but my my reframed answer
Well, your first answer was so good. I mean, the legacy, you're right. I mean,
the you may Yeah, it's good because the first time I've been asked that question. Sometimes you need to hit it a second time to get the right answer. It depends at what stage you're in and what circumstances you are in your in your life or or journey. I think I'm thinking a little bit more about legacy dilemma because that's where maybe me and my some of my clients are. But a dangerous spot in an earlier stage might be like, hey, I'm reinvesting everything back in the business. And that business may not have a forever lifespan. it may be a a period of time you may need to diversify
1:04:59or the opposite you're pulling cash out of the business and you're putting it into other stuff when you really should be redeploying it back in your company and that's the highest return so I think depending on what stage you're in and I could have the same arguments for an exit most owners exit their businesses way too early Warren Buffett talks about this a lot and they don't actually ride the right wave or the wave all the way through so at each stage it's different and depending on where you are one could be more dangerous than another. That's my revised answer. Thank you.
Okay. Well, I love that you've got this idea of role, return on life experience, you know, walk us through like walk us through the role uh as someone that's stuck. Let's imagine there's an entrepreneur out there. Um they're making good money, not great. They're not living their wildest fantasy, but they're they're stuck. What are some of the ways they start to start looking at the return of life experience? How should they begin the process to think about it? So the first step is most answers that we have are within us and we get bombarded with external you should do
1:06:04this you should do that Instagram video this one I'm making million dollars a month doing this like external external external external if we turn off the noise go spend a couple days alone go take a walk for you know hours a day and just think about like what do I really want for me like what's in my head and in my heart what do I want to pursue usually when you take away all the noise you find that internal compass that tells you I really want to go be a real estate entrepreneur and truly my passion isn't being a realtor it's buying and flipping properties and that's really what I want to do right there's that internal compass so first thing is figure out what direct what direction do you want to go and it doesn't have to be this highlevel you know what do I want out of life and where is this going and if I were on my deathbed what do I that's very good to do and it's very philosophical and I like that but most in this example that you gave are like what's the next three years look like? Don't necessarily think about the next 50. In the next three years, what do I want to focus my energy and attention towards building? Get clear on that first. And then you're building toward
1:07:08that goal. What are the things in life that are really important to you? What's your what are the the the factors that you want to measure? If you're measure if you're creating a scorecard for your life, what are your categories on your scorecard? relationship with your spouse or your kids, spirituality, health, you know, monetary gain, whatever it might be. And start to look at those items and saying these are my measurables. And then you want to define what does success look like for each of those measurables. And you know, identify simple markers that this is what a successful relationship looks like. This is what a successful amount you time with the kids. This is what amount of money I'd want to make. And then based on the resources you have, you want to look at life and say, "How do I want to allocate my time towards getting to these outcomes?" And if you're in a spot where, man, I've already hit I've got great financial outcomes already, you got a lot more energy and time to invest in your spouse, your kids, your spirituality, whatever it might be. If you're in a spot where like, man, I can't I'm I'm check to check and I'm I'm
1:08:11maybe I have a $10,000 a month expense, but I'm making like right around that a month and I need to get myself up to 20 30 40,000 a month. Then there may be a lot more focus on building that further and saying, "Hey, here are the what do I need to do? Do I need to, you know, get a new system, a new job, hire a new coach, you know, learn a new skill or capability and build backwards toward the end goal." Um, so that's kind of for someone that's in the earlier phase. Phase two is someone who goes, I've already got the money and I've built the wealth. So let's say you're talking to a person who might have $40 million of net worth and now it's like, hey, I spent the years building this up. I live a lifestyle of 500 grand a year. I have way more than enough money. Now it may be the more deep introspection to saying like, hey, what do I want out of life? where where what's what's going to give me the fulfillment that I'm looking for where I'm experiencing the relationships I want to experience. I'm pursuing the passion that I want to experience with the internal joy or light that I want to share with the world. Whatever that is,
1:09:14whether that's creating beautiful designed buildings or it's being a motivational speaker on stage, what is your calling that you want to do in life? Um, and then I have them pick a time allocation. How many hours per week and how many weeks per year do you want to be doing the business stuff that you love to do? And then the remainder of the hours per week and weeks per year are what's the fun, explorative, personal, adventure, creativity stuff that you want to be doing. So to make it tangible for me this point in my life, I want to work 25 hours a week, 35 weeks a year. And at this stage, this is what I want. So 25 hours a week doing the stuff that I love to do, innovation, speaking, workshops, creation, podcast, things that I really enjoy doing. And then 35 weeks a year I want to work. Then the 17 weeks a year I'm not working, it's wide open to do whatever it is I wanted to do. Exploratory. This past month I did a eight day meditation retreat silent you know thing in Portugal and then I you know explored you know nature and and
1:10:18life and you know that's what I wanted to do in some of my free time. So you create that time allocation and then you say to yourself if I'm doing exactly what I want to do in business and the amount of hours per week and weeks pre I want to do it and then the rest is my freedom to pursue whatever it is pow or pickle ball and you know uh you know fun activities with friends travel skiing whatever it is if I have that why the heck would I ever want to retire like I'm living the return on life experience I want why would I ever want to retire I want to old like business and use my gifts forever. I think retirement is the worst word in the world for an entrepreneur. If you're an entrepreneur, you probably never want to retire because retirement is putting out of use. What you want to do is you want to use your gifts every day. So, it's really about getting rid of the crap that you don't want in your business and and someone else's, you know, one person's trust is another person's treasure. So, give that stuff to someone else. You do what you love to do and then you have the perfect time allocation. you don't ever retire. And Brett, you're just waking up every
1:11:19morning going, I live a life that I don't need to take a vacation from. And I think that's the ultimate spot where you're in full alignment both ways.
It It's so good to build a world that you to your point to build a business and a life you don't have to retire from your work. You know, I I don't know if I told you the story, but um you know, my dad I liked to play golf 20 years ago. I didn't love it. My dad had this like 40 entrepreneurs and they would go twice a year to this place and go play golf, okay? Like and mind either sending in their registrations via fax, this is an old school, they're all in the agricultural bean business. And I wanted to spend more time with my dad. And so I took over the trips. So I'm now like the travel agent doing the contracts, the booking, the golf, and I get to rig up the tea times. Well, who do you think I play with every day? My dad, right? I'm like, "Oh, the t-shirt again. Brent and Rodney." and then whoever else. And so I did all that just to spend more time with them. And I started watching some of his friends retire. You know, these guys were now in their say 70s, 60, late 60s, 70s. They're at
1:12:23that age. They would retire that year. The next year they'd come back typically significantly heavier, you know, like it would be the norm. And then I mean sadly some of them started dying um just right like they were their whole life was these lions that built and then without that they sold the business they handed it off and they they didn't have hobbies and passions and they hadn't done the deep work to know what am I going to fill that time with? Yeah.
And so my dad was at that play. He was thinking about selling his business and and I was like, "What would you do?" Cuz I'd watch this happen, you know, and he's like, "Well, I don't know." I was like, "What if you don't do that? I mean, you're going to earn out over a certain period of time." And like, "Dad, you're going to have to work there for someone else for when you sell it. You know, there's going to be a period you're going to absolutely hate that. That's not going to be great. What if you don't sell it and just do what you love to wherever you don't want to do it anymore? And then at that point, call me and I'll go clean it up for you." And what's fascinating, he's now 84 and you know I tell you he's bolted. He's running his business to this day and you
1:13:25told he's had two back surgeries and his biggest thing is I got to get back to the office. I got stuff to do. But for him it's not like this grind. It's not to grind to grow. He misses the people and the contacts and and just being in it. So it's funny like you build a world where he would never want to retire from like why would I? He was more doing it because his peers were doing it,
not out of.
And so I think really for the the people listening to this,
figure out what in your business could you do forever? What lights you up to where your point Ali, you don't have to retire. You're getting the return on your life if you're if you're working 25 hours a week, 35 weeks a year, and you've got bliss for 17. I mean, what what what would be the purpose of retiring from that? Because you can just see you talking about it. It's lighting you up. And I think people haven't, you know, figured that. I definitely didn't figure that out till about 10 years, like what were the things I could do forever. You know, one of my things is I could I love managing capital. I love doing deals. Uh but I love coaching, right? I'm a I I have a handful of private clients. I coach one-on-one. And it it like lighting that spark in
1:14:29someone and seeing their life flour and they're getting more enjoyment, more money, more happiness, and they're more fulfilled, right? That's why you and I do what we do. But I would I could do that from anywhere in the world, wherever I want, whatever I want. Like that's what it's about. And so everyone, when I want to hear what you just said, go back and replay that answer. And how do you go get more return on your life experience? And so I I want to pivot for a moment here because we're we're at the end of our we're getting the end of the episode. And you are one of the most mindful and present people I've ever met. There's only another person uh that I would say is at that level. Um, and that's Gary Keller. Uh, most intentional present. You're with him for 4 hours later. He has looked at his phone once and he doesn't know where it and it's just we're in the moment. I mean, for hours.
I I remember your books maybe 10 years ago. The one thing.
Yes.
Gary Keller. Yeah.
Yeah. Totally.
Loved love that book. It actually inspired one of my one of the concepts I had in my book because he underlined
1:15:31throughout the book key concepts and I took a whole form with bolding key phrases throughout the book. But that was a fant probably good to reread that but uh it was a fantastic
I read it every year. I have a handful of books I read every single year. That's one of them. Um I got the experience to be in the room with him as he was teaching that material and then the book came out and when it came out I was like oh my god I spent 10 years getting to live this through you know with him and so was so special. I just just the most present you know gifted mind of our time um but very mindful. So, I want to go to presence with you and I've got your eight habits of highly engaged humans, but I want to tell a story before we go there, which was you and I were talking after the event and I was like, gosh, it just feels like people are just not connected. You know, they're not connecting like this talking as humans. They're so into their I had to find my phone. They're looking at their device just staring at it all. You know, you go out to dinner, you look at the table next to you, four people are staring down at their device. You're going, "What are we doing here?" Um, and I think I told you I read two
1:16:33books that really transformed my connectivity to my phone. How to break up with your phone and deep work and you read those two books together and you become really weird. Um, in a good way. Um, but so you've got this idea when you go with your friends, which I've implemented by the way, we do it by family. We do my friends called Phone Stack.
Yeah.
So for everyone out there that wants to get more connected to actually be with people again, look them in the eye. What's phone stack? Phone stack is setting the expectation with your your loved ones or your friends that hey, we're getting together to spend quality time with each other. So, I've got a group of five guys. We get together for lunch maybe once or twice a year and we spend two hours together at that lunch and that's the most quality time we get the whole year with each other. We've been friends for 20 years. So, we put all of our cell phones in a stack. We put a timer on for an hour and a half or two hours uh for whenever lunch is over. And for that period of time, no one checks their phone. And if you decide you want to check your phone, you're picking up the bill. So, it's just a simple little barrier that, hey, we're
1:17:37here to be with each other. And uh let's put aside all the distractions and the noise and just be with each other. And what it does is creates more presence. And the greatest gift you can give to others is the gift of your energy. And your energy comes through being present with somebody and putting aside uh the distractions to be with them. So, it's a game changer for for relationships. And you can do it with two people at the table and just put phones away. You can do it with 10. And uh and if you do it with 10, one add-on I have is keep it to one conversation, you'll change your entire dinner. If you go out with 10 friends and it's five individual side conversations, it's never as beautiful as if you have one conversation at the table between all 10 people. Um so simple things go a long way. it. I I always ask you because of course when you told me this I had a thousand questions like well but what about when someone goes to the bathroom you know if they go to can they touch their phone then you're like no explain why though because you know you're well why can't I go take my phone and go to the bathroom Ollie
because
1:18:37
why wouldn't that work? Well, it it takes away from your your mind goes toward whatever issue you've then seen on your phone because there's some fire that comes in, right? You go to lunch with your friends and having a great lunch and you go to the restroom and you get it. You'll check your email and you know, you find out that some deal that you were hoping goes through didn't go through or some fire needs to get put out. Your whole brain goes towards solving that problem and thinking about that and you come back to the table, you're just not present anymore and you didn't pick up where you left off. So, give yourself the gift. Give your friends the gift, your partner the gift of, you know, at least an hour or two of just quality time without any distractions.
Well, and then I ask you, well, Olly, someone's going to have an emergency. What are you going to do? One of these guys, they put their phone down. There's going to be an emergency, so they're going to people are going to say that. And you you solved that. So, what's the solution for that?
Yeah, there there's a couple. So, with with there's the the spouse thing where like there might be a emergency with the kid or the spouse. And hey, I get it. like you got you got young kids and maybe they're coming up. You can always have your phone on do not disturb and
1:19:40you can have settings set up that if if certain people call you uh or certain people call you a second time it bypasses and it it rings. You could set up a thing like that and set an expectation with a group that hey I told my wife I'm busy for these two hours but if she needs to get a hold of me she's on do not disturb. Um and then with our with our forum I have a monthly entrepreneurs forum. We bought a burner phone because we have a five hour meeting every month and for the five hours no one's allowed to check their phone. So we bought a little flip phone um and we give the spouses and assistants that telephone number and if there's a true emergency they call that number and you'll get through to the it'll ring at the table and in you know I don't know seven years we've been doing it. We've had it ring once and it was someone whose wife went into labor. Um, so that made every one of our entrepreneur meetings so much better for five hours every month with a $20 purchase. Uh,
and this was your requirement to join the group. You were like, "Hey, I won't join this forum if we're not going to be present." Because you know how it is,
1:20:45right? People get on their laptop, someone's hacking away over there. And you go, "Dude, you're not taking notes on what we're talking about." Yeah.
You're now you're firing off and it and the minute they do that, then someone else does.
Yeah. And then pretty quickly, why are you know, you go back to the fundamental, wasn't the goal to get smart people in a room to help each other improve their lives? That's why we got here. And now we're down to just everybody's kind of working in their own silos. I I just think it's so You do it so well. Uh and you and I have, you know, after dinner, we've talked for like I I'm the person I have zero notifications on my phone. Like I go to the not you go to if you go to Apple and notifications, not ringing, not text. The only way I find out I have a text is I have to click on it. I'm like, "Oh, I I have 12 texts." But I don't I can't even handle the number because the moment you open it up and I see that little red number, right? You can't not go there. It's my or my brain, right? I open I see that little So that's why I had to go to just I'm a zero notification person. My phone only rings if you're a contact and I have it on. Like I don't have it do not disturb,
1:21:46which is probably 90% do not disturb. But it it's it's so it's what you said. It's funny. People go to dinner with me, they're like, "Man, for three hours you've just spent here totally proud." I'm like, "Well, but I want to spend time with you. That's why I'm here. If I didn't want to spend time with you, there's a thousand ways I could have said no." And so, I just think that getting more mindful and present. I love what you say that the greatest gift you can give someone is your presence. And and we need more presence, I think, today now than ever.
100%.
No question.
Yeah. And and to your point, I love what you said there. It forces you to ask the question then, if I'm going to go to dinner with this person for three hours and be fully present and not check the phone, is this a person I really want to go to dinner with? Because if it's not, stop investing your time in it. If if if the person's not important enough for you not to multitask, then should you really even be hanging out with that person?
Make sure we visit. Why not?
Yeah. makes you I mean I know that
1:22:48sometimes I'll go to a conference and there's a speech that that I'll be listening to and I'm like ah this one doesn't and I'll start multitasking on my phone and then I stop and I go Ali just walk out of the room and go do that by the pool or on a bench. Don't sit in a conference room and not be present. Like if you're going to be there be 100% there. If it's not important enough for you to listen to this person then just go take a walk and do it elsewhere. Um, but quit the whole double multitask type of approach. Like be be 100% where you are.
I got
I even went to, you know, at conference I go to I I go to paper. I don't love paper. I tried all the and I've tried the remarkable. I've got but I I have to have a device that doesn't have access to the internet v like I need it to be a remarkable is fine, but I would take my notes in paper and then I'll type them up later on the flight back and and organize it. But it allows you to be more present because it's too easy to go to a conference and I'll even see it at mine, right? You'll see people I'll even like roll like guys can put the put the laptops down for a little bit.
Yeah.
You know, and and just participate. All right. As we're wrapping up, I ask everybody these questions and I've got
1:23:50to ask you, by the way, your book, Essentialism, I know it's going to be one answer. I I I've read it. Fantastic. I never read it till you told me. So, anytime someone I respect recommends a book, uh I I I go read the book. So, what are the three books, and you can use that one if you want, um that most impacted your life?
Yeah, I'll definitely use Essentialism as one. Um, and I'll I'll speak to the books that are that have been more impactful. I'm going to call it in the last decade. Uh, because the earlier books that I think they're the more staple books like seven habits that you know we all know about. But the ones that have impacted me the past decade, one is um, essentialism. One is necessary endings by Henry Cloud, which is about the people, relationships, and businesses that need to end in order for you to move forward. So, it's all about pruning your life. and really identifying what needs to stay and what needs to go. Fantastic book. And then um the power of now which if you are inclined towards mindfulness and being more conscious, it's a deep book. It's a heavy book, but
1:24:54it's all about being in the present moment and not being controlled by anxiety of the future and fears of the past and actually being able to live in the moment. And that's been a huge shift in life, you know, the past eight or nine years since I read it.
I I I love those. I'm going to go Necessary Endings is on my list now. Um you gave me another one I haven't read and I'm consider myself to be fairly uh well read, but there's so many great books out there. So So thank you. All right. Best purchase under $200 last 12 months that's most improved your life
is a
best purchase under 200 bucks.
Yeah, it's 10 bucks. It is a journal. It's called the twominut a twominute journal. It's like a little yellow journal. Uh I think it's called the two-minute journal. It's by Neil something. I forget his last name. Um begins with a P.
And this journal you do every morning and it's the simplest structure. It's like what do I need to let go of? What am I grateful for? And what are three things that I'm going to do today? And it it takes like five minutes. It's
1:25:59marketing when it says two. Takes about five minutes. But you you start off your day and it's the simplest things. You know, something you need to let go of, something you're great or things you're grateful for, and then the three things you're going to do in the day. And man, I when I do it, I don't do it every day, but when I do it, those three things tend to happen. Um, and it might be as simple as, hey, I'm drinking, you know, 64 ounces of water today or I'm going to go work out or whatever it is. Or it could be a bigger thing like I'm going to finally, you know, make that call I need to make on some topic. So that's probably been the best purchase. 10 bucks. Cool. Last thing. You get 60 seconds to talk to your 21-year-old self. What do you say? Live in the moment. Keep building and doing what you're doing. Everything's going to be okay. If people come into your life that are full of fear, understand that's their issue and you can let them go and set them free to do their thing. Don't let them in your life. If the shoe doesn't fit, take it off.
1:27:03Trust your instincts and direction, but also pause and ask for direction from people wiser than you. And love fully, live freely, and breathe deeply.
Wow. That's the That might be the best answer I've ever had. And everyone approached us so differently. Uh live freely, breathe the I I love that. That was beautiful. That was beautiful. Well,
we sent people to
Well, 60C, you you took the you nailed it. Uh where should we if people want more Ali um they should go read your book, The Business Deliver? We'll put the show notes in there. Where should they go? Where should they connect with you?
Best spot is go to my website. It's alinasser.com and there's a newsletter you can sign up to join the community and every other Saturday I write a newsletter with a simple principle or idea talked about 20 of them today where I'll cover a key concept or learning directly tied to being a business owner entrepreneur but a life lesson built in. And I think the
1:28:05best way to stay connected is hop on that newsletter. So if you go to alinasser.com and click join the community um you'll get that every other week. I don't spam you with stuff. So, it's just a clean, easy newsletter every other week and that gives you the pathway to be more connected. Um, so that's the best way. And of course, I'm on I'm on social networks, so feel free to connect with me on social as well.
Uh, by the way, your newsletter is absolutely fantastic. Everyone should go sign up for it. Um, go there. We'll include links in the show notes. Ali, you are a true treasure. I learn something every time I'm with you. Thank you so much for pouring in to our Be Wealthy audience. We're grateful for you. So, thanks for being here. My absolute pleasure, Brett. Thank you for having me. Really appreciate the uh conversation and the depth we've shared.
It's so great. All right, I'm Brett Tanner. That's all I know, sir. Thanks so much. Go out there and be wealthy.
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